Speaking of Ezra Klein's obsession with experts, I'd like to suggest another class of experts he may not have considered: people who run companies. I know, I know--it feels too much like conceding to the kind of annoying right wing ideologues who think that the market is so perfect that if anything good is possible, a company will do it--indeed, will already have done it. Believe it or not, those people annoy me too.
But while it is certainly true that companies don't know everything . . . that they are merely a part of the vibrant web of different institutions that makes up this America of ours . . . you do not have to be a lunatic free-marketer to acknowledge that companies might be good at a few things that other institutions don't do so well. You just have to visit the former Soviet Union and ask around.
Of course, I don't know that Ezra has not actually spoken to many people who run companies, and particularly not companies which don't support the current progressive agenda. But that suspicion is the only way I can explain this very, very strange interview, in which Jerry Avorn, chief of the division of pharmacoepidemiology and pharmacoeconomics at Brigham and Women's Hospital, announces that companies don't do anything. It's no mystery how Dr. Avorn formed this belief: he pretty clearly has absolutely no idea what companies do. But the fact that he mistakes his ignorance for a fact about the universe makes me wonder if pharmacoeconomics is what my college boyfriend's roommate used to do with a few grams of cocaine and a copy of Mankiw's Principles.
For example, Avorn says:
My view is that the translation of an important scientific breakthrough -- let's say the discovery of tumor angiogenosis, which a lot of drugs were based on -- it's not implausible to say the translation of those basic science findings into a marketable product is something that could be done in university settings, and many university groups are moving towards doing their own licensing. It requires capital, but as you see with biotech start-ups, they can often get it.
So once you raise capital to form a biotech startup, you can often develop a drug, which proves that we don't need companies to develop drugs. Huh? Is Dr. Avorn under the impression that biotech startups are some sort of extension campus of the University? They're drug companies. They're just in the larval stage.
Ezra leaps in:
Some people have said to me that a lot of the pharmaceutical industry's really innovative work is coming not from inside large companies, but from the acquisition of start-ups.Exactly. If you look at where their new drugs are coming from an awful lot is coming from buying a biotech company run by real start-ups
So if we just got rid of big pharma, the real innovators would . . .
Well, actually, they wouldn't do anything, because they wouldn't exist. If we just got rid of big pharma, all the capital that the biotech startups raised in the previous question wouldn't be so easy to raise. Venture capitalists have longer investment time horizons than retail investors or say, mutual fund managers, but those horizons are not indefinite. They need to have a way to get their money back out. That usually happens in one of two ways: the company goes public, or it gets acquired.
Moreover, biotech firms often lack the assets they need to monetize their drugs: things like the research capability to take a drug through trials, or even more commonly, the production, distribution, or marketing capacity to actually mass produce the thing and sell it. These are boring divisions, usually led by people who didn't even go to a decent graduate school, which is why professors of pharmacoeconomics don't know a lot of district sales managers or operations chiefs socially. But without them, the company goes broke. If too many companies go broke, there's no new capital for those academics who want to found an exciting new biotech startup, and they have to go back to begging the government for money.
Once you've
conceded that drug discovery needs capital, you've conceded that you
need a pharmaceutical industry. The rest, as Shaw said, is just
haggling. But Avorn sails on, apparently blissfully unaware that
raising capital is something that is usually done by, er, capitalists.
Dr.
Avorn seems to think that companies are some sort of giant black box
to him--the operations are impossible to see, so all you can do is
measure inputs and outcomes on a pie chart. If only there were whole
big areas of social science, not to mention the pop business section at
your local Barnes and Noble, devoted to describing how companies work
for people who might like to know. But alas, there are not, so medical
doctors who want to spout off about pharmaceutical firms are forced to
do so with no actual knowledge, nor even an educated guess, about how
they might work:
Virtually every progressive recommendation about health policy for the last 20 or 30 years that the drug industry felt might harm its bottom line has been met by the threat that if they don't make as much money before, innovation will cease and there will be no cures for new diseases. It came up around Medicare drug pricing and generic drugs. It's not a surprise to see it come up around health-care reform.
There are a couple reasons that this is a specious argument. One is that according to their filings with the SEC, the drug companies only spend about 15 cents of every dollar on research and development. That's compared to more than 30 cents in administration and marketing and more than 20 cents on shareholder equity. As an investment in R&D, I think any venture capitalist would say a company spending 15 percent on research is not a robust innovation engine.
This makes about as much sense as saying that Dr. Jerry Avorn cannot
be that smart because his brain only weighs about three pounds.
Presumably, you can't be really smart--really innovative--unless your brain is at least 30 percent of your body weight!
This
is obviously ludicrous--so why would Dr. Avorn say it about an R&D
department? Like your brain, the R&D department is part of a
complex system that does a lot of important stuff. You can argue that
the R&D department is the most important part of a company, not
least because it couldn't survive long without it. I think the same
thing about my brain--but I'd still be just as dead without my liver.
You certainly can't prove anything about my effectiveness as a
journalist by pointing out that it weighs less than my bones.
So how big should a "brain" be? Hard to say. But let's look at some companies that are generally recognized as pretty innovative, and their R&D as a percentage of revenue:
Apple: three cents out of every dollar
Google: ten cents out of every dollar
Intel: fifteen cents out of every dollar
Genzyme (innovative biotech startup!): sixteen cents of every dollar
US Government: three cents out of every dollar
I can assure Dr. Avorn that any venture capitalist would be happy to invest in these hidebound laggards who haven't had a new idea in centuries. The first few, anyway.
I'll tell you what else venture capitalists like: they like to make money when they lock it up in a very risky venture for a long time. That's that "shareholder's equity" line that Dr. Avorn thinks is a huge waste.
His most fundamental
error is treating company size as static, and then acting as if the
money is being divided among begging divisions. If there were only
some social science, some bookstore section, that could have explained
the difference between a stock and a flow, an investment cost and an operating cost,
a balance sheet and an income statement . . . but no, that is not the
world we live in. In this world, Jerry Avorn's world, a pharma
industry that makes $1 million and spends $500,000 on R&D is not
only better for all of us, but more innovative, than a firm that makes
$100 million and spends $15 million on R&D.
You
could argue that since most of the drugs people take are wasted, we'd
be better off with the former world than the latter. But that isn't
really the argument he's making, and it's pretty clear that he doesn't
understand the industry well enough to make it if he wanted to.
Rather, he seems to view marketing expenses as . . . I don't know, an
elaborate way for pharmaceutical executives to
funnel money to their favorite college cheerleaders. In reality, of
course, marketing is presumed to increase total revenue by more than is spent on the marketing budget.
That means more money available for R&D. It also means more
capitalists are willing to invest in the inherently risky drug
discovery process.










Wow, a post on healthcare economics that actually makes a coherent argument using actual economic principles.
And I think your tone was just fine. Many of us who actually have some understanding of healthcare & economics have grown weary from listening to arguments with no logical economic basis from people with no apparent understanding of basic economics - they're everywhere. There are valid argument on both sides - but most of the arguments being made by the left right now are just plain wrong. People who publish such drivel for all to to see deserve to be called out on it.
"In reality, of course, marketing is presumed to increase total revenue by more than is spent on the marketing budget"
That presumed sure does seem extremely relevant. Why exactly should drug companies which makes products that are needed, actually, physically needed and frequently hold patents that make them near monopolies on treatment market their products? Why should pharmaceutical products be treated like any fungible good when it seems obvious that they should make their case with the actual effectiveness of their product? It worked fine for a really long time.
"Why exactly should drug companies which makes products that are needed, actually, physically needed and frequently hold patents that make them near monopolies on treatment market their products? "
The beautiful thing is that I don't have to be able to answer that question and can still be confident that their marketing expenses help them make more money. I know that the owners of Pharma companies want to make more money. The money they spent on marketing is money they could have kept. The fact that they chose to spend it on marketing shows me that they think it will help them make more money. Why else would they do it?
I could postulate that marketing makes more people aware of their products and thus increases sales. I could guess that marketing helps convince people that could benefit from taking a drug to take the steps necessary to buy it. I could imagine all sorts of explanations, but I don't have to. All I need to know is that the people spending the money on marketing were free to keep that money and greedily chose to spend it on marketing instead. That's enough to tell me that marketing will make them more money than not marketing.
I don't believe mactbone is suggesting that any marketing is a waste of money (or imorale), though if he is, he is wrong. Rather, the suggestion is that the marginal impact of marketing is not always positive. Take, for example, when Hawley & Hazel attempted to sell and advertise Darkie toothpaste (now known as Darlie) in the western world. H & H may have believed that their marketing expenditure was worthwhile, but belief is not always aligned with reality.
It is understandable that you lashed out to that response. Far stupider comments about economic matters have been published by journalists, authors, and bloggers than those made by mactbone.
"All I need to know is that the people spending the money on marketing were free to keep that money and greedily chose to spend it on marketing instead. That's enough to tell me that marketing will make them more money than not marketing."
Uh, right... I got this stock you you should buy...
I think an important point, from the "very, very strange interview," was missed, which was this. Real innovation comes from start-ups and new drugs need real innovation to be created. If start-ups don't have high marketing costs then real innovation does not require marketing and fundamentally, neither do new drugs.
Seemingly, the expensive part is getting through the trials, maybe that process needs to be examined and should allow for smaller companies to be able to afford the process. Making the smaller companies less reliant on the big ones.
Going back to Mactbone's point- the demand for drugs is inelastic so people will continue to buy even if the cost increases. Thus big pharma can pass all the cost associated with marketing onto the customers who have little choice in the matter. Who would rather pay less for diabetes medication and not see the silly advertisement of The Jonas Brother using the meds?
And boom goes the dynamite.
I just found a new favorite thinker.
I'm still confused. If the demand is so inelastic that they can pass along the marketing costs, why don't they just raise the price that high and skip the expenditure. I can't guarantee that the marketing actually will make them more money, but I'm certain that they believe it will. If not, why would they spend their money on it?
I am not an expert and I think the more important points were made by zosima and denisarvay. But I think a plausible answer to your question is found via a Prisoner's Dilemma type of situation, which was taught to me as an undergrad (and thus I hope I tell the story right!).
Say only two drug companies are competing for the same business and the aggregate demand for a drug is uncorrelated with marketing. If only one company advertises, that company will get all the business and wins. Thus the other company must advertise as well in order to achieve some market share. However, advertising doesn't increase the total size of the market and so both companies would be better of agreeing to not advertise because there costs would be lower and still the total amount of drug sold would be the same. However, I can imagine, under the scenario with no advertising , that for a random reason company A is getting more business than company B- so company B starts to advertise to win that market share forcing company A to do the same.
I think there are a bunch of soft reasons why a company might advertise as well- good for the company ego, good for employee moral, give the impression that the company is not some faceless machine, etc. And obviously I concede that some marketing is needed- doctors need to know which drugs are available to prescribe, people need to know what their choices are, etc. That though, is different from an ED drug putting out a overtly expensive, forty second spot during prime time tv... that money could be going elsewhere.
Megan,
Your commentary belays a frightening ignorance of how scientific discoveries and particularly discoveries in pharmaceuticals actual come about.
Avorn alludes to this point, but I'll make it explicit. 99% of the cost for drug development is born by the public sector. Scientists at publicly funded institutions around the word do basic research and publish it for free. The cumulative costs of this effort are extraordinarily high. Eventually they make a discovery, which suggests an application; for example, a process like tumor angiogenosis(as Avorn notes) or monoamine neurotransmitter pathways.
The drug companies just take the discovery the last mile. Often by making a small modification to the naturally occurring signaling molecule(VEGF or serotonin) patenting it and branding it and we get Recentin or Prozac.
Characterizing the final steps of this process as "innovative" is a tremendous stretch. It is essentially a formulaic application of Capital to Chemistry. The hard part was already done years ago by a grad student paid dirt.
And therein lies the rub. The existence of subsidized public research and innovation naturally provides a huge incentive for companies to monetize it. Unless the health care bill has a clause cutting funding to NIH, the same incentives will continue to exist to monetize public research and *someone* will do it.
In addition to these excellent observations is the fact that the major drug companies spend most of their resources chasing the next Viagra -- some drug that will fix or ameliorate a condition -- rather than what's really needed -- treatments and drugs that will prevent major diseases.
Yes, drug company executives are experts at this, and their strategy keeps in place a health "care" system that focuses on fixing conditions that blossom expensively in the last few months of life, rather than working toward measures that will keep people healthy.
The real goal would be a system that prevents most if not all serious malfunctions, so that most of us die simply of old age, rather than in expensive agony from preventable causes.
The government has every right and incentive to intervene to change this, since the research is publicly funded -- it's public property. As it does with mileage standards for automobiles, the society needs to put in place a set of incentives and punishments that will steer drug companies in the right direction -- toward prevention.
This will probably result in our current crop of executives, with their outmoded thinking, dropping by the wayside and being replaced by a new set of industry leaders who can adapt and prosper in the new conditions.
It's called evolution.
I did go back to read the interview that prompted this post. I think you do owe those people an apology. The issue is your tone vs his tone. Your article is somewhat shrill , whereas the original story was clearly someone musing on the nature of innovation and commercialization. For what its worth, what he talked about are very mainstream concerns. Those of us with sponsored research are urged - by sponsors and by our institutions - to worry about moving our research closer to market and to find direct avenues of exploitation for research results. The goal, obviously, is to get better payoff for research funding; its not about displacing companies. I read his interview as being more about the nature of sponsored research and efforts to make it more productive rather than an assertion that drug companies should be disbanded or executives dismissed. I think you set him up as a strawman, actually.
I thought the tone was okay. Though it is nice to be friendly.
We should be discouraging people from talking about things they don't know anything about. Especially when many readers won't understand that expert-of-another-field don't know what they're talking about. I can't think of the value of Ezra's airing this doctor's ignorance about economics other than as evidence that there are successful, smart, doctors, whose ideas about health care economics should be taken cautiously.
Exactly.
Dr. Avorn's interview wasn't on economics, it was on how innovation works in the pharmaceutical industry. This happens to be something that Megan has no expertise in whatsoever.
Megan's sarcastic comments about something that she only dimly understands makes her tone seem much worse than if she had been saying something intelligent. You could get better,not to mention more polite, commentary out of a fortune cookie.
Since Megan hasn't updated with a link to Ezra's response:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/in_defense_of_experts.html
Ezra pretty much nails it.
zosima,
The problem with the sarcasm is that Megan has essentially impuned the intelligence of Dr. Avorn. As a member of the medical profession, Dr. Avorn is normally accorded a certain degree of respect.
The small concession:
"I realized that the tone was a little snottier than I meant it to be. So apologies to both Ezra and Dr. Avorn, assuming that they read this, for my over-the-top sarcasm. I don't retract any of the arguments, but I wish I'd made them a little more temperately."
How does this translate?: I should have callibrated my words more carefully although I still think I am right and you are a complete idiot.
Nothing in the piece indicates that Megan understands Dr. Avorn's concerns. Although I don't agree with everything Dr. Avorn says, I think one has to at least acknowledge a person's concerns whether you share them or not. If someone is completely disrespected, why would they even consider your point of view.
I'll admit, I don't agree when Avorn uses the budget fraction which goes to R&D as a metric of innovation and/or intent to innovate.
But other than that and beyond her tone, Megan's responses are largely irrelevant.
She basically complains that Avorn's domain specific observations don't fit her simple general purpose microeconomic model.(Or more accurately her satisficing approximation of a simplistic model of idealized businesses.)
She concludes that failure to fit the model is evidence that the domain specific observations are wrong. This is a classical case of confusing the model with reality. (or "conflating the map and the territory")
If you find domain specific evidence contrary to your model, it indicates your model does not apply, and thus conclusions drawn from it are irrelevant. A model must be incredibly well tested and validated in a particular domain before it can be used to do what Megan tries to do, ie. infer observational error.
There seems to be some confusion between the concept of ">marketing and selling.
The Chartered Institute of Marketing defines marketing as "The management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably"
Marketing is focused on identifying the needs of the customer. As Peter Drucker used to say, it is the customer who determines the nature of the product. The success of a commercial enterprise depends upon the ability of the company to create innovative products which meet the evolving needs of the customer. Ad campaigns targetted at different market segments are only one element of marketing.
Denis,
The lion's share of drug development costs are paid for by private capital not government funding. The successful drugs help to finance development costs. For every successful drug, there are many that never get past Stage I or Stage II.
The job of the drug company is not treating patients but developing drugs that can generate a return on investment. In order to attract and retain investors, all companies need to demonstrate strong financial performance and provide a return on investment. Financial performance is not optional but a neccessary determinant of ongoing existence.
Meagan,
The tone sounded a bit angry. Some of the comments like the reference to cocaine & Mankiw's textbook added little and detracted from the piece.
The link did not take me to the transcript of the interview so it is difficult to fully appreciate the context of Dr. Avorn's remarks. I can appreciate that Ezra Klein can be very grating at times. The piece did not give any sense that you had done more than a cursory background check on Dr. Avorn. Dr. Avorn sees this particular issue from a the perspective of a clinician. There was little indication that you had tried to understand why he has reached the conclusions that he has or had read his published works.
The arguments presented were sound and logical but the tone seemed reactionary and contemptuous which diminished the thrust of the argument. When you are tempted to be sarcastic, it is well to remember the definition:
Sarcasm is a form of humor that uses sharp, cutting remarks or language intended to mock, wound, or subject to contempt or ridicule
It is indeed nice to see economic principles at work. But those are abstractions, and frankly not much of a substitute for working knowledge of an industry.
The reason why R&D spending in pharma is a concern right now -- esp as it relates to marketing spending -- is that the real threat to the industry, current and future, is pipeline. There's not enough in it, and not enough that's promising. The industry is undergoing what may be a paradigm shift and the big companies are having a terribly difficult time adapting to it. The blockbuster model -- in which rainmaking drugs like Lipitor (an acquisition for Pfizer, btw) can carry a company through mass market penetration -- may be on its way out; what replaces it is not clear yet. One of the more serious contenders, as a matter of fact, is boutique drugs and bioagents: products that are effective for very small patient populations. This is a tough economic model, especially for giant multinationals with enormous overhead. Big marketing isn't necessarily the way to make them profitable, and blockbuster isn't applicable because the patient numbers aren't there. You're talking many products, highly technical, highly specified in terms of function, heavy on the science. You're also talking highly competitive spaces with multiple entrants that rarely have clear or convincing advantages. I can tell you that big pharma barely has a vocabulary for this kind of marketplace yet. Their reflex is to throw marketing at it. This is a short-term solution at best; in this industry, the science will eventually out, and if the science isn't there, neither, most of the time, is lasting success. Biotech does better, and big pharma is scrambling to ally itself with biotech (through acquisitions, natch). But buying into a market space is not the same as having a vision for its future. And having a vision for its future is not the same as being the right kind of organization to execute.
The other thing to take into account is pharma's sluggishness to avail itself of technological and other evolving market efficiencies. Some of this is legal heebie-jeebies; a lot of it is that things were a little too easy for a little too long for some of the bigger fish. And then yet more is the old turning-the-aircraft-carrier problem.
This isn't to directly contradict the issues you take with these particular players, of course. But it is to say that, (1) you're coming to the defense of an 800-pound gorilla industry that's hardly in need of defense; and (2) I'm not sure you've got that much clearer an understanding of where big pharma stands in the evolving economy than the doc you're fighting with, and I'm not sure your faith in management -- just 'cause they're management -- is well placed. The fact that they are who they means they must be good, now and in the future? Really? If the last few years have demonstrated nothing else, have they not amply proven that this isn't so -- that position and even prior success don't make anyone immune to blindness, even ineffectuality, as business and broader economic and social conditions evolve?