Here's what Obama told Smerconish:
I think that's absolutely spot on. I share Avent's compassion as a matter of abstract morality, but as a matter of politics, and even as a matter of practical virtue, it falls short. Politically it's quite the Washington hari kari to inflame public opinion about health care reform by explaining that the $1 trillion bill is designed to extend coverage to people who are here illegally. The bigger picture is that it would be more shameful if Obama doomed the entire health reform project by planting his foot down and saying, "By God, either 6.1 million illegal immigrant adults get subsidized health care or there will be no health care reform at all!" Let's not pretend we don't know how that would end.OBAMA: We don't want a situation in which some child, even if they're an illegal immigrant, shows up in an emergency room with tuberculosis and nobody is giving them treatment, and then they're going back to the playground and playing next to our kids.
So I think there is a basic standard of decency where if somebody is in a death situation or a severe illness, that we're going to provide them emergency care. But nobody has talked about providing health insurance to illegal immigrants. I want to make that absolutely clear.
Practically, Surowieki makes an excellent point that if we guaranteed health care to illegal immigrants, we would turn the United States into the world's "health care provider of last resort." Since no other industrialized democracy offers health care for illegal residents, we could be flooded with requests from workers migrating to the States whenever they got sick.
Update: Ryan just responded to Surowieki, and I have to give him credit for this zinger: "First, while there are many things worth emulating about Europe, I'm not sure that attitudes toward immigrants is one of them." Check that!
Again, I'm with Ryan all the way morally. I think every person in America deserves health care. I think it's an issue of morality, of human rights. And immigrants are people, too. But it seems to me that the best way to extend health care to non-citizens isn't to mandate illegal immigrant coverage so that the world's uninsured consider the United States taxpayer their guaranteed provider of care. It seems the better way would be through immigration reform, to create incentives and avenues for illegal immigrants to become full-fledged citizens, pay their taxes, and get their proper GP check-up. But guaranteeing that they'll get coverage whether or not they become citizens-- is that the right incentive?
Every person in America already has health care. No one is being turned away from care, especially illegal immigrants, who often head to the front of the line through the emergency rooms or through state sponsored programs for the disadvantaged. Visit any hospital in the state of Texas and you will find overflowing access to everyone, regardless of status. If a hospital has refused to accept government inurance (Medicare) for lack of payment, they will ambulance that patient to another hospital that will. The question here is thus not access to health care. The question is and has always been a question of freedom. Freedom in the form of self directed control of our own lives from taxes and choice. Since we already pay for open access for everyone through exuberant fees and we maintain some semblance of freedom by choosing a health insurance plan that meets our family's needs, why should we take away choice (read freedom) from the people and add in a middle man (read as the destruction of choice hence freedom)? When has any purchase transaction been less expensive when you involve a third entity? Injecting morality as a basis for changing a system that is already moral shows a lack of understanding of what being moral really means. Change for the sake of change breeds chaos, hence the current state of affairs.
"Every person in America already has health care."
Seriously?
Do you really believe this.
Yes you can go to the hospital to get a broken arm set or a heart attack. You can even stay in the hospital while they care for that immediate threat, but you can not continue to receive treatment once you are out of the hospital.
Like they say "why get the test if you can't afford the cancer?".
Ever tried to get cancer treatment in the emergency room?
No.
If our health care is so great, if "every person in America already has health car" why did my friend who died last week have to turn to strangers on the internet to raise money for her treatment.
That is one screwed up system.
and really would you refuse care to a person having a heart attack because they were here illegally?
Yes,but how do you PAY for it? Free isn't free. The "moral" system exists because we can't stand the though of actually having to pay for what we pretend to be, charitable, (particularly for our fellow Americans). We're comfortable either having someone else pay for it or deferring it into the future. If you're for the status quo, then you certainly can't complain about paying higher taxes or premiums, because that's how we subsidize "free" healthcare. You also can't complain about the high cost of healthcare insurance because all the parties involved, except for the beneficiary, are making a profit off the services they render. They charge for the cost of the service (what it takes to deliver healthcare), and then some, which goes into their pocket (i.e. it doesn't get returned to you). Unless you're some kind of communist (i.e. you hate for profit insurance middlemen/insurance providers), I suppose you really have nothing to complain about, right?
Sometimes these lies you guys tell gets worse by the day. I guess you can see Russia from your house too.
http://www.politicsandtechnology.com/2007/07/make-no-mistake.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/chain-email/statements/
There's another big reason why Obama and the Democrats in Congress aren't looking to cover illegal immigrants under health care reform: It would cost a fortune.
Covering most uninsured legal U.S. residents already would require an eye-popping $1 trillion in new federal spending. Extending that same coverage to 7 million-20 million illegal immigrants would significantly inflate that already huge price tag.
Notice that Obama only said the "it's not designed to". That's typical politician gibberish to skirt the question. He did not say a simple NO.
I do not know if the interviewer asked him why the Dems rejected language specifically barring illegals from coverage. That would have been interesting.
Liberals, trying to polish this turd, state that "illegal immigrant coverage is not in the bill" but refuse to admit that it's certainly not prohibited in any way in any bill. If it's not prohibited, any bureaucrat or liberal judge can interpret it as coverage.
Actually, illegal immigrants contribute much more in taxes paid than they consume in services. That is, they pay sales taxes, tolls and fees for services, have income taxes withheld, etc., but in terms of cost they avoid any interaction with authorities, so they don't use most government provided services, so they don't collect unemployment insurance, etc.
If you add to this the value of cheap labor to the businesses than employ them, the cost of forcing illegal immigrants out of the country would be $billions.
What about the cost of educating their children, the cost of imprisonment, the emergency room visits, etc. The sale taxes collected don't even begin to cover these expenses.
"If you add to this the value of cheap labor to the businesses than employ them, the cost of forcing illegal immigrants out of the country would be $billions."
Yeah I love that excuse. Liberals complain about the "great income divide" between our working classes and the "rich". Then, in defending illegals, they tell us that the illegals save us money. Of course, liberals also call for increasing the minimum wage. So on the one hand the illegals provide cheap labor and, on the other hand, the government is supposed to force employers to pay them more.
If 10 million or so illegals were not here, all those jobs would have to be filled by Americans. Any shortage of applicants for those jobs would require employers to INCREASE WAGES in order to attract employees. Wages for lower skilled workers would go up. There would be no need for increased minimum wage since the market would provide for increases.
Ed:
Illegal immigrant labor subsidizes the cost of the cheap goods and services here in the U.S. Either we pay more for those goods and services, in the form of higher wages, or we pay less, in the form of lower wages. Increasing the minimum wage stands to benefit the millions of Americans who are living at, or close to the poverty line. Essentially, what you're saying, it's perfectly acceptable to deprive millions of Americans from enjoying a higher standard of income, who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage, so that we can punish illegal immigrants. That makes perfect sense.
pcardh0:
In the short term, yes. At the local level, depends. In the long term, no. At the federal level, depends. Over the long term (ten years or more), they pay more for all the services combined than they receive in benefits (they pay over twice as much in taxes to Social Security and Medicare as they get in services). They also pay local, state, and federal income, sales, and property taxes, which offset the local costs (money from the federal level is sent back to the states for educational and healthcare programs).
Your assumptions don't account for the lower cost for goods and services that the lower wages of illegals provide for (and which in turn saves you money).
Your assumptions don't account for the cost of stopping, finding, and deporting illegals (which is considerable, and would be extravagant if we managed to stop, and find, and deport all 12 million illegals).
Derek said: "It seems the better way would be through immigration reform, to create incentives and avenues for illegal immigrants to become full-fledged citizens, pay their taxes, and get their proper GP check-up."
Because amnesty worked so well that last time the gov. tried it. Do it again and next time we'll be inundated with 30 million. Then, when the gov does another one, we'll get another 60 million.
Meanwhile, since none of them make any real money and have had the worst record of social climbing of any immigrant group, we'll all be subsidizing them with zillions of taxpayer dollars for healthcare, bilingual education, and every other giveaway program that the Dems can think of so as to turn them into party line voters.
Whether we legalize them or not, they're here. They have been here for hundreds of years, and they will be here for hundreds of years.
At any rate, the issue isn't necessarily amnesty, that is giving them instant citizenship, but increasing the availability of work visas for the existing illegals. Giving them a legal right to work here, if work is available, is a much better alternative than catching them and throwing them back over the fence, to try again. Mexico is poor, we're rich. You do the math.
Little Paco falls off his bike, breaks his leg and the bone is sticking through the skin - they are going to treat him. This is America - a first world country - he won't be turned away. That's just the way it is.
Do you really want to ask Nurse Jackie and Dr. House down at the local ER that they need to tell little Paco there is nothing they can do as he screams in agony? It's just not going to happen - so some program needs to be in place.
What will most likely happen is charges will be set high enough to cover some of the losses hospitals take on indigent patients. There will be no formal system - but if little Paco comes in, he will be treated, and the extra $5 profit Medicare allows on a CBC or Head CT will cover part of his care.
Here's another reason why maybe, just maybe, it's not such a good idea to use our taxes to subsidize the illegals.
AP sources: $2 trillion higher deficit projected
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-08-21-obama-budget_N.htm
Oh! The glory of Obama and that wonderful liberal congress.
Whoops! I should change that to "using our children's and grandchildren's taxes to support the illegals" since THE ONE and his insanely liberal congress seem to piss away money in a way never before even dreamed of.
I'm sure you're aware that the stage for the record deficit run up was set after Bush won the Presidency, and squandered the budget surplus Bill Clinton had created during his terms of office. Dick Cheney is infamously known for having said that "Deficits don't matter", so I'm not sure why you would care now.
The cost in taxes to subsidize the illegals is a drop in the bucket compared to the costs to subsidize the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which combined will probably cost over $2.4 trillion), according to USA Today. The costs are going to be born by not only you (now), but your children and grandchildren for years to come, because while you were certainly willing to throw American soldiers lives away, you yourself weren't willing to pay for it. But you may as well say it, "That's dfferen't!".
Those are not immigrants but a invading horde of Illegal Aliens! American tax payers cannot provide free health to non-citizens no matter from where, or what race!
Our government fails the most basic and primary task & duty of government, to protect this Nation and its Citizens from invasion and enforce its laws.
They refuse to abide by our Constitution, refuse to enforce our Immigration Laws and refuse to honor their Oath of Office!
Our Government, past & present, Republican & Democrat, have allowed the invasion of 20 to 30 million criminals and uneducated peons which is the largest invasion of any Nation, at any time, by any means & in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution.
This refusal to abide by our Constitution or enforce our Immigration Laws should be classified as Treason of the most foul kind, & as grounds for impeachment & trials for Treason!
Not only have they allowed the invasion, they force American tax payers to pay Billions on Billions of dollars to provide Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders numerous children, and free medical care, at the same time the invading horde break numerous laws and massive document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture and standard of living while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American Citizens at an rate the terrorist can only dream about.
Recent statements in Mexico from both President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary something needs to be done. "Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of police officers, soldiers, and civilians," Hillary whined.
But no mention, whines, concern or care that their refusal to stop the Massive Invasion of Illegal Aliens pouring across our borders or enforce our immigration laws that causes an estimated 25 Americans deaths per day and 10,s of thousands victims of Assault, Robberies, Rapes, Identify thief, and other assorted crimes committed by the invading horde of Illegal Aliens from Mexico on American citizens each year!
It is a telling indictment & shows their Empathy & Compassion of our Politicians & their priorities are not for the American citizens when they express more concern over Mexicans deaths mostly connected to the Drug trade, than the murders, havoc & crimes of Illegal Aliens against American Citizens!
The Democrats view the invading horde of Criminals and Uneducated third world rejects as Undocumented Welfare Democrats & the Republicans as Undocumented Slave labor for their Pay Masters in the Chamber of Commerce & Businesses!
Most of our Politicians in Wash. DC are wading knee deep in innocent American blood and suffering because they put Self Interest ahead of the interest of American Citizens & the future of this Nation!
The Citizens of this Nation have not sacrificed with blood, sweat & tears for over 200 years & obeyed the Laws of the land, paid the taxes, and fought the wars & built this Nation to see Corrupt politicians turn this Nation into the United States of Mexico without a shot being fired, to serve their demented, nefarious goals and lust for power!
Right Steve...the correct term is "illegal aliens." By definition an immigrant is in the country legally. Folks need to get the debate language straight before they wade into the discussion.
My dictionary defines IMMIGRANT as "a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country".
My thesaurus lists these synonyms for IMMIGRANT: newcomer, settler, migrant, emigrant; nonnative, foreigner, alien, outsider; expatriate;
So many illegal aliens are also immigrants.
Ready to wade in...
I'm afraid you're just going to be in over your head...
Steve, you lost me somewhere around when you started capitalizing "Illegal Aliens" in your rant. You have demonstrated one of the many failings of our country, which is to properly educate their citizens so they don't look like complete idiots to the rest of the world.
No one cares because they are a little busy with the other 300 million legal residents of this country. You did notice that we are in a recession, right? Truth be told, outside of a handful of immigrants rights groups, no one gives a s*** about illegals, and the Border Patrol, given the limited resources that have been procured for them by a country unwilling to pay its taxes, is doing a standup job. Congress may be full of corrupt, greedy, and pandering idiots, but they represent individuals like YOU, who are unwilling to pay for what you want. If you want what you want, you better be prepared to do some sacrificing on your own.
Surowiecki misleadingly suggests that the US Taxpayer would in effect subsidize health care for illegal immigrants. But the vast majority of illegal immigrants pay taxes. And they keep making social security payments (which helps keep social security solvent) without any hope of getting social security benefits:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html
Q) Should universal health care cover illegal immigrants?
A) No
Of course not. Illegal behavior should not be rewarded or incentivized. Why are we even discussing this? If illegals want health care, they can go back to their own country where they belong.
And spare me the tired old argument about how they pay sales tax. Guess what, so do the rest of us and we also pay income tax. Let's be fiscally conservative and apply the billions we already waste on their emergency room care towards their deportation costs.
No one is discussing this except for a conservative lobby desperate for any reason to split off support for universal healthcare for all AMERICANS (the U.S. citizen kind).
If you're fiscally conservative, which I'm skeptical that you are, you wouldn't spend more to get rid of a problem than it would to simply eat the costs associated with keeping them here. It's going to cost approximately $94 billion dollars, according to Julie Myers, head of ICE (Bush admin.) to deport all the 12 million illegals. This doesn't include what it will cost to find the illegals or move them through the courts. It's just detention and transportation across the border, along with associated personnel costs. ICE, which would be responsible for the effort, has a total budget of just $5 billion a year for all their combined operations.
So increase the deficit by another $200 billion or so, for a short term fix to a long term problem (they'll just come back, you know), and increase the costs of goods and services associated with illegals (who's gonna pick your fruits and vegetables now?), in the midst of a recession?
Since you have no faith that the government can manage healthcare ("government is the problem"), what makes you think they will be able to successfully carry out this project of deporting 12 million or so illegals, on time and under budget?
It sounds like the only tired old argument is the one you're advocating...
The illegal immigration debate extends far beyond health care reform. It's quite narrow minded to only focus on their drain our health care system and hospital emergency rooms. Illegal aliens are a huge tax burden. Estimates show the cost to provide K-12 education to illegal alien children who can't speak a word of English and require special English immersion classes is $12 billion annually. It is another $17 billion to educate their anchor babies who because of a gross misinterpretation of the constitution are regarded as US citizens simply because their illegal parents gave birth to them while unlawfully present on US soil.
$2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments. $3 Million Dollars a day is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services by the American taxpayers.
The list goes on and on but I'll assume you are starting to see the trend.
Yes, an argument can be made that we benefit from the cost of their cheap labor, but in turn we need to recognize that the vast majority of illegals are working cash jobs and therefore do not contribute as much to our economy as they take out. Instead of granting amnesty and bringing to the surface a new underclass of low wage employees who will not make a substantial tax contribution but will now feel an even greater sense of entitlement to apply for welfare and other tax funded public services, we should reform our welfare system and start holding welfare recipients accountable to repay their debt to society by working labor and agriculture jobs if they intend to retain any form of social assistance.
Your numbers don't add up. Even using all your numbers, and the high numbers at that, 12+17+2.2+22+1.1=$54.3 Billion. Let's look at these number, shall we?
By constitutional law, and the interpretation of the courts, if you're born here, you're a U.S. citizen. To eliminate that provision (which would probably require a Constitutional amendment) means that anyone, yourself included, could be deported for dubious or even political reasons:
Fourteenth Amendment:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Couldn't be clearer, right?
That takes away the $17 billion, since they (natural born U.S. citizens) have a legal right to access the public school system, just like the poorest of the poor in the United States. Incidentally, by Supreme Court mandate, the only services that illegals can legally access is the public education system and emergency room for medical treatment, so you'll have to take that up with the justices, and get them to change their minds. Anyway, this leaves us with $37.3 billion. I can only come up with the figure of $11.3 billion, which is 1.1 million kids of illegals going to K-12 public schools, at $9,000 a year, with 15% added to the total cost (high, in my opinion) for ESL/English immersion. So your figure is close, but it lops another $700 million off your estimate, for a total of $36.6 billion. I can't even begin to wonder what kind of person you are that would deprive anyone of food, but here goes: I would concur that your estimate of $2.2 billion is somewhat accurate (I came up with $2.4 billion) if you factor in all the combined federal programs (which include state assistance, older people, Puerto Ricans, and Native Americans, etc., and come to a whopping $60 billion), and if all the illegals are utilizing those programs (which they're not). So you're estimate is not accurate, either, and I would cut that figure in half to be more (like) FAIR. That leaves another $1.1 billion I'll have to take off your total, for $35.5 billion dollars. The $11 to $22 billion smelled fishy, so I looked that up, and sure enough, it's an estimate concocted by the Center for Immigration Studies (read: opposed to illegal immigration, and in the habit of cooking numbers to suit their agenda) of another estimate produced by the state of California, and extrapolated for the entire U.S. I'm going to go with the lower number, because that is the more CONSERVATIVE of the two. That chops off $11 billion for a total of $24.5 billion. The prison number is fake as well. There's a total of 147,000 non-citizens (i.e. who may or may not be illegal) in our combined local, state, and federal prison system. On average, it costs $25,000 per prisoner per year to incarcerate these non-citizens. So your figure is off: It costs $10 million, not $3 million a day, (you got me there). That increases the total cost for incarceration by $2.5 billion, which revises the total estimate to $27 billion dollars a year.
$27 billion dollars a year does not = $90 billion dollars a year.
I won't even get into how much they contribute to Social Security and income taxes (8 million illegals file income taxes, every year, according to the IRS), which they never collect (but which you do).
Now I'll be the first to admit I am lousy at math. I will be the first to admit that my numbers may be "off". But they certainly are closer to the truth than what you're projecting.
You're numbers aren't reliable for a number of reasons: They're made up (i.e. fake); they derive from widely circulated hoax emails (but have no origin in official statistics released by either the government programs that pay for them or an accredited academic source); they are emitted by such unbiased institutions as FAIR, the Heritage Foundation, and of course, Lou Dobbs, who just loves immigrants to death and would never, ever make something up or take it out of context to support his belief that immigrants are "bad".
There's three reasons we let illegals stay:
1) They do all the dirty, nasty work we no longer want to do, and they do it for a bargain.
2) It's a pressure valve for poorer countries like Mexico, to prevent a mass exodus up north.
3) They're like barnacles, no matter how hard you try to scrape them off, they just keep coming back.
In summary, we get more than we pay for.
The only answer to this problem is to make the process transparent, and increase the number of work visas for current illegals. Substantially. They can come, but they can't stay. If they want to stay, they'll have to stand in line like everyone else.
I could go and on, but I'll assume you're starting to see the trend.
As a footnote, if I understand you correctly, you hate not only illegal immigrants, but the poor and hungry as well, even if they are born in the U.S.A. white bread/bred Americans. You kinda gave yourself away in the end. Might I also suggest some remedial math, since you're statistical analysis is, well, poor.
The last paragraph is the key. Too late to ruminate on how there got to be 6.1 million illegal immigrants, many quite established, with families born in the US. This tangled mess needs to be resolved with a path to citizenship, which would include health care. Then patch the holes in the border (mostly the southern border, if I understand correctly). Universal healthcare is not intended to apply to illegal immigrants in other countries, but few have this particular dilemma.
Remedial math, Bill Davis? Quite condescending, aren't you. If you had comprehended my post, you would have recognized I wasn't attempting to perform a statistical analysis. I reported data from various organizations. The fact that you hold an unfavorable view of organizations such as FAIR, the Heritage Foundation or the Center for Immigration Studies, does not render their data inaccurate.
Then you had to take it a step further and attempt to tell me I "hate" illegal immigrants and the poor. Once again you are wrong and taking huge liberties in making assumptions about a person you do not even know. Objecting to my tax dollars being allocated to illegal aliens who came here in contravention of our immigration laws does not by default mean I hate the individuals.
It's interesting that you appear to have spent a full day arguing with and condescending to American citizens who are voicing their opinions and concerns regarding illegal immigration. By your logic, can I infer that you hate American citizens who are against illegal immigration?
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on just about everything with the only notable exception being I concur that the US should expand its guest worker program. At the very least, it will help ensure there's sufficient resources to work in certain industries where the need is greatest and the immigrants will be required to get on the books and pay taxes.
What I hear in most of the posts in support of nationalizing/reforming health care is the assumption that everyone should be entitled to an inexhaustible supply of the best health care available. We, as a nation, simply can't afford that. Nor would many of us make that choice. Is the endgame that we, in the United States, spend all of our time and money trying to beat death? Health care grows to 100% of GDP (or more) and we are all employed in the pursuit of a longer life span?
Why can't people pay for their health care themselves? That's the only fair way. You want it? You pay for it. If you want something and can't pay for it, it doesn't mean that some kind of injustice exists that needs to be fixed. It simply means that perhaps you haven't budgeted your money wisely. Instead of the $400,000 house and the $40,000 car, perhaps we should be putting most of that money away for a health care rainy day, and instead live in the $150,000 house and drive the used $12,000 car. We're so eager to spend money when it's not our own. What decision would a person with a chronic or terminal illness make if he/she had to come to his/her family (or neighbors) and ask them to pool their money for his/her treatment?
You have to think about where the money is coming from. The only reason we spend so much on health care is because it doesn't come right out of our checkbooks. The way health care finance works today is a classic case of the "abuse of the commons."
Another point: government involvement in almost anything increases the costs. There's no reason to think health care will be any different, especially with Medicare and the Bush-enacted prescription drug plan as precedents. In fact, governmental involvement has largely created the current dilemma. Remember the cardinal rule: Whenever something goes colossally awry and seems to have no solution, you can be assured that the government is behind it. And you can always be certain that the government will have an even more expensive solution to the problem it created, and that the solution will create a whole bunch of other horrible, expensive unintended consequences.
Health care would heal itself if left alone. Much like the housing market, the more the government stays out of it (both in terms of direct involvement and regulation), the healthier it will get. The private sector, if left to its own devices, will find a way to insure just about everyone.
Incidentally, so that there's no confusion, the Steve who posted the immediately preceding comment is different from the "steve" (lowercase "s") who posted further up. I'm capital "S", he's lowercase "s".
Incidentally, so that there's no confusion, the Steve who posted the immediately preceding comment is different from the "steve" (lowercase "s") who posted further up. I'm capital "S", he's lowercase "s".